TLH Ep. 50 Building Legal Teams for Growth: Lessons from Nextdoor’s CLO
Hello, Legal Helm listeners.
Today’s episode marks a special milestone as we celebrate the 50th episode of The Legal Helm, where we explore the evolving intersection of law and technology.
For this milestone conversation, we’re pleased to welcome Sophia Contreras Schwartz, Chief Legal Officer at Nextdoor. Sophia oversees Nextdoor’s legal function across product, regulatory compliance, commercial operations, intellectual property, litigation, employment, and corporate matters.
Prior to joining Nextdoor, Sophia was a partner at Donahue Fitzgerald, where she focused on corporate transactions and intellectual property law.
In this episode, we explore the evolving role of legal leadership inside technology-driven organizations and how legal teams support innovation while navigating regulatory and operational complexity.
Stay tuned for a thoughtful and insightful conversation as we mark this milestone episode of The Legal Helm.
Your host
Bim Dave is Helm360’s CEO. With 20+ years in the legal industry, his keen understanding of how law firms and lawyers use technology has propelled Helm360 to the industry’s forefront. A technical expert with a penchant for developing solutions that improve business systems and user experience, Bim has a knack for bringing high quality IT architects and developers together to create innovative, useable solutions to the legal arena.
Today’s Guest
Sophia Contreras Schwartz is Nextdoor’s Chief Legal Officer and oversees the legal function, including product, regulatory compliance, commercial operations, intellectual property, litigation, employment, and corporate matters. Prior to Nextdoor, Sophia was a partner at Donahue Fitzgerald LLP, focusing on corporate transactions and intellectual property law. Sophia holds a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from the University of California, Berkeley, and a Juris Doctor from UC Law San Francisco (fka UC Hastings). Sophia is from Sebastopol, California, and lives in the Bay Area.
Transcript
Bim Dave: everyone and welcome to the Legal Helm, where we explore the evolving intersection of law and technology. I’m your host, BIM Dave, CEO of Helm, 360. Today’s guest is Sophia Contreras Schwartz, chief Legal Officer at Nextdoor Sophia oversees the legal function including product, regulatory compliance, commercial operations, intellectual property, litigation, employment, and corporate matters.
Prior to Nextdoor, Sophia was a partner at law firm, Donnah Fitzgerald, focusing on corporate transactions and intellectual property law. Sophia, it’s a pleasure to have you on the legal helm.
Sophia Contreras: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.
Bim Dave: Indeed. So just to kind of get us started, I’d love to learn a little bit about your journey that led you into the law and ultimately what led you to being CLO at Nextdoor?
Sophia Contreras: Well into the law is interesting, kind of, I think it’s a standard, uh, liberal arts. College situation wondering, oh, what do I do with this degree in political science? Um, I, of course had had these grand illusions of going into human rights law and being an international lawyer. Um, I, I, my father worked for the State Department when I was younger.
I lived abroad for a few different years of my life, and I always enjoyed travel and kind of loved the idea of, of doing that. As an adult, but, uh, but the realities of our educational system in the US set in which is, you know, you go to law school and if you don’t have someone, uh, covering for you, you’re coming out with a significant amount of student loans and needing to pay those off and very high interest rates.
So, I did end up, you know, moving straight into a law firm, which is the standard path, uh, for an attorney coming out of law school here. Um. I came out of school in the right after the, the 2008, uh, crash, um, which was an interesting time for I think a lot of people who were, you know, new attorneys. I, I was lucky enough to have secured a position at a mid-size law firm in the Bay Area.
Um, I know a lot of people who went into big law, uh, had offers rescinded, had deferred start dates for their, their roles, and there was a lot of uncertainty about what was gonna happen. Um, I think I lucked out in the sense that my firm was smaller and a little bit more, um, fiscally conservative and just, uh, in a good spot during, during, you know, that particular period of time.
So, uh, I did a summer position there and then I, I ended up as an associate at the law firm, I started out doing litigation. I think it’s very common to have that path as a new lawyer. It’s very easy to delegate, uh, litigation tasks, but, um. A couple of years in, I was like, this is not, I don’t love the uncertainty of what my next day is going to look like in litigation.
You have no idea when you’re gonna get, you know, A TRO dropped on your lap and suddenly, you know, everything is. Is wrecked and you’re, you’re at your desk for 12 hours writing something. Um, and I had an opportunity to move into corporate and in particular I worked with a partner who did a lot of m and a transactions and I really loved that work.
I loved deal, work. I,
um,
On reflection, I think it’s because there’s a much more of a client connection when you’re doing that kind of. Uh, work for somebody, you’re, you’re getting into the business, you know, doing diligence and understanding what a company is really all about and getting to know the people that are, that are part of that company.
So I really did enjoy that, uh, part of my practice. And that’s basically what I was spending most of my time doing, um, until I did transition in-house and I had made partner at my firm, I. Was kind of looking at, uh, my future and thinking, is this the rest of my life and is it too early for this to be how the rest of my life is gonna go?
Uh, and I had this opportunity, actually very next door, neighborly opportunity. Um, someone that I knew in my community where I live, uh, was becoming the first general counsel at Nextdoor. And he had come to me and said, Hey, I need a corporate lawyer. I’m starting the legal team. We have really no foundational teams built up at the company and this is an opportunity to get in, you know, on the ground floor and really build something.
And so I had always been interested in in-house work, and I love the idea of Nextdoor because it’s something so tangible. Um, you know, we all live somewhere and we all have a neighborhood and I like the consumer product. Aspect of the company because I can use it, it’s, I can touch it, I can experience it.
It’s very different than working for maybe a SaaS company or, or something like that. So, um, I made a big move and a big pivot and left my partnership at my firm and, and went to be the second attorney at Next Door. And. That was over seven years ago. So, um, I’ve stuck it out for quite a long time. And in, in that time period, you know, I started out as a, as the number two attorney.
Um, built up the team, built up the, the, the systems and the process and the operations and all of that that go along with, with, with starting a legal team, took the company through. Private financing, doing a SPAC transaction, and you know, everything that comes after that as part of being a public company and, and listed out there in, in the world.
Um, and then a few years ago, I was lucky enough to take the top lawyer role. Um, so it’s been a great journey from a, you know, career development perspective and I’ve learned so much along the way.
Bim Dave: Wow. Well, f firstly, congratulations on getting the Top Lawyer award. That’s, that’s amazing. Um, so two, two questions.
Firstly, you mentioned, um, some travel. Like you, you, you lived out for a little while. Where, and any, any interesting locations?
Sophia Contreras: Yeah. Um, I lived in Moscow, um, when it was part of the USSR, so I was younger and mostly remember snow and. Pigeons, um, and grayness in the world. But, uh, but yeah, so that was our first location. And then when I was a little bit older, uh, we lived in Malawi, in Africa. Um, so it was amazing. And, you know, I actually have a, a daughter.
I have two kids, but my youngest is about the age that I was when I lived there. And I’m reflecting about, you know. What I remember from that time and how formative it was for me and thinking about, you know, the age that my kids are and what they might experience and what they will remember when they’re older and what will shape them as well.
Bim Dave: I can, I can totally relate to that. I, I went to, um, Kenya, so not, not far from where, where you are in, in Africa for, um, a trip when I was 11 years old to go and visit my grandparents and my granddad was a lawyer in Kenya. So that was my first experience at
Sophia Contreras: Oh, amazing.
Bim Dave: you that that was the most experience, most amazing experience of my life and really opened up my eyes to, you know, so many things that you just don’t get to see living in England, living in a certain, a certain way.
So, yeah, it was really, really eye-opening. So I, I can totally get that.
Sophia Contreras: Yeah, it was, it was something I, I did not wanna do. I remember when my parents told me we were moving again and I was very upset, um, did not wanna leave the US and the comfort of my home and my school and my friends. And then, you know, fast forward two years later, I had the exact same experience leaving Africa.
Like, what? I don’t wanna go back. What are we, it’s, it’s amazing here. Um, but you know, coming back was, it was definitely a transition because. There was no television and um, you know, internet was not really a big thing at the time. Um, and so I missed out on a lot of pop culture. So I remember coming back and being in middle school and kind of everyone, you know, being into fashion and into certain musical artists and TV shows.
And I was going, I have no idea. Like, I don’t know what any of this is. Um. And that was a challenge. Uh, and having kids that age now I’m, I’m going, oh yeah, that would really have been tough. Um, knowing how into all of that stuff. They are.
Bim Dave: No, I can, I can totally imagine that. Well, we are glad that you, you moved back and that we’re here today, uh, talking to us. ’cause that may may never have happened. So, so
Sophia Contreras: That’s true.
Bim Dave: that.
Sophia Contreras: I could be a lawyer in Africa
Bim Dave: There you go. There you go. Um, yes, indeed, indeed. Um, so, so when you look back, I mean, you’ve had such an interesting journey to get to where you are.
What, what are the, the key defining moments that you think shaped your career?
Sophia Contreras: I, I, I mean, the biggest one is really the switch for me from going from a firm to going in-house and it’s, it’s definitely a learning curve. I remember my very first day at Nextdoor, we used to start, we used to do an all hands every Monday morning and. Uh, we used to require every new hire to perform a special talent at all hands.
So not only are you joining a company, but you are getting up on stage in front of the entire company and doing some kind of special talent. And they can be silly. Like it doesn’t, someone once did, you know, how, how many different ways can you peel a banana? I mean, it can be whatever you want. Um, but I, I, I got up there.
My special talent was, uh, singing the President’s song, which is in the. Tuna Yankee doodle dandy. I learned in a PUS history. It’s come in very handy if you’re in trivia and you need to know who the 17th president of the United States was. Sing the song. It works every time. Um, but after I did my special talent and got over, you know, uh.
The, the horror of having to perform in front of all these people I’d never met before. I was then sitting there and they were going through metrics and they were talking about all these different acronyms, um, that you use at the company. And I was sitting there going, whoa, what have I done? I, I just have no idea where I am or what people are talking about, and how am I supposed to practice law?
In this environment when I have, I don’t even know what Wow. Or Dao or Mao or any of that is. Um, so it, you know, it, it kind of made me wanna
Pack up my bag and run out the door and, and go back to the comfort of my firm, but I stuck it out and, um, you know, persevered and push through and, and it, and it’s has turned out to be, you know, the, the best, one of the best decisions I’ve ever made from a career standpoint.
I’ve also been there a long time. You probably noticed from my history, I am not someone who jumps from job to job. I am a loyal person. I really like to dig in and really understand the place that I am working in and build and cultivate the relationships of, of the teams that I’m in. So it’s not, uh, not someone who’s jumping from thing to thing to thing.
Like when I’m in, I’m in.
Mm.
Bim Dave: Yeah, no, it sounds like it. I heard someone say once that growth feels uncomfortable, and it sounds like this, this, this last few years has been, has been growth for you. So, so, um, good on you. Now, now, now when I, when I was reading out your intro, um, you, your role, um, although the title is simple, covers a lot of different areas, so I’d love for you to just kind of explain to us what is the role of a modern chief legal officer today compared to, you know, 10 years ago?
Sophia Contreras: Well, I, you know, there’s the time aspect, but I also think it’s the size of the company. I, you know, we are a public company, but we’re not huge. We have, you know, around 500 employees in a few different locations. Um. So I’m lucky enough to work super closely with the legal organization itself, but also with, you know, the main leadership level.
I mean, the management team, the executive team is obviously my team, my peer group. Um, but I know a lot of the key players at the company and I think that if you’re at a much larger shop, it’s harder to build those relationships and understand, you know, at a, in a deep way, um, how things work across the organization.
So, uh, you know, I’m very much the leader of the, of the legal organization, but I also still do a fair amount of work, um, as an attorney because we are small and we have to be nimble and be very careful about our resources. Uh, a a lot of my time as well, and I, and I’ve developed this over the years, being the general counsel is just, um.
Being a partner to the CEO, that’s a real big part of my job. Um, I think leader, leader, legal leaders have an interesting vantage point across the organization. Um, we don’t have skin in the game. There’s no real politics for us. We’re not the chief revenue officer trying to. Grow revenue at all costs or the chief product officer trying to, you know, build growth at all costs.
And, and we don’t have that tension, um, across really any organization at the company. And so I, I like that, you know, kind of neutral, um, high level vantage point that I get. And, and that helps me in my role as, uh, the chief legal officer and in, in helping guide and counsel the CEO and other members of the management team.
Bim Dave: Hmm. Yeah, no indeed. So, so, um, so I wanna, I wanna move on to talk a little bit about Nextdoor. So I remember, um, I think it must have been in 20 15, 20 16 when Nextdoor launched in the uk. And at that time there was an early adopter program, which I was part of actually. I’d just moved into a new neighborhood and, um, in those days there was this excellent marketing campaign that you guys did where you could introduce, um, next door to your 10, 10 nominated neighbors and they would actually get physical card sent to their address, which I thought was an amazing, um, marketing.
Tactic ’cause we felt like it was an ex, you know, exclusive club that we belong to. Um, so, so, so I, I, I got all of my neighbors to sign up, which was amazing.
Sophia Contreras: Well, amazing. Thank you bi.
Bim Dave: yes,
Sophia Contreras: Super, super neighbor.
Bim Dave: Yes, indeed. So I’ve used it for so many different things from, you know, getting recommendations for plumbers to, you know, e even one of my neighbors at the time had built an Alexa skill to, um, give me the bin or trash use, as you would call it, collection days, so that I didn’t have to go and look it up on the website, which was, which was another like, kind of weird but wonderful use of Nextdoor.
But for those that don’t know, um, firstly, where have you been? Um, but te tell us a little about what the purpose of Nextdoor is, um, from your perspective.
Sophia Contreras: Well, next door is the Essential Neighborhood Network. So we wanna be the place where you can go to get all of the relevant information you need about your neighborhood, whether that’s local news, trusted recommendations, uh, safety information, um, events, you know, anything like that. Uh, we’re, we are really.
A leader in local relevance and making sure that the people, um, in a neighborhood have access to all of that, uh, really wonderful information. It’s the type of stuff you can’t necessarily get on Google, right? You can’t.
You can’t Google and get that bespoke, uh, you know, true neighborhood recommendation of what the best, who the best plumber is in your neighborhood, or what the best coffee shop is, or where the best farmer’s market on a Saturday is.
Um, and you know, over the, the last year we’ve been working on a big transformation of the product, which is to bring more and more relevant local content onto the platform. Um. If you’re still on the platform, you might’ve seen,
Uh, last summer we launched, um, news and alerts on the platform. So instead of simply relying on neighbor posts, just like you might’ve done when you join the platform, uh, we’re bringing in local publishers, uh, and, uh.
And making sure that people in neighborhoods have access to, uh, that true local news source and information from third parties, not just from their neighbors. So really trying to complete that full picture of local information for people who are on the platform.
Bim Dave: platform. Yeah, I did see that. And I think that’s a really, really good use case actually, because there’s so, so much misinformation on other channels, so other social channels. So having a trusted news source through something like this, uh, makes a lot sense to me.
So,
Sophia Contreras: Yeah, and I mean, I’m, I’m glad you mentioned that. ’cause I do think from a misinformation perspective, uh, something very unique about Nextdoor is, you know, we’re not that. Uh, we’re, we’re, we’re not that, you know, eyes on the platform, spend a bunch of time, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, you know, doom, scroll, see whatever, you know, viral content, you know, um, the distribution is very specialized and, and localized.
And so it’s pretty difficult for that type of misinformation to spread on our platform because it’s not something that, um. That’s just not how our distribution models work. You know, we’re, we’re really looking for that true, uh, local information that, that you would need to find on a daily basis.
Bim Dave: Yeah, true, true. And, and I think I read this, hopefully I read this, right, but do you have something like 40 plus million active users a week? Right on the platform?
Sophia Contreras: Our weekly active user number is in the, uh.
um,
21 million range. That’s what we reported, uh, last quarter. So, um, we did, there’s, you know, I, I know where you got that number. Um. We did use to talk about total platform, which would be on platform and off platform. Um, but a few, a few months ago, a few quarters ago, we’ve just transitioned to platform.
Wow. Um, which is, you know, people who are coming onto the web or onto the app. And, uh, we are, uh, in that 21 million range on a weekly basis. Um. We have a big user base. We have 105 plus million verified neighbors across 11 different countries. Um, and, uh, you know, the UK is one of our, our, uh, our target markets and, and growing, obviously the US is, is the biggest for us.
We’re in one in three households across America, but, um, we’re doing work in Canada and in the UK and, and growing presence in those areas as well.
Bim Dave: Excellent. Well, I, I speak on behalf of the UK and we love it, so keep keep doing what you’re doing.
So, so, um, thank you for, for kind of, you know, educating us on, on Nextdoor’s purpose. ’cause I think that’s, that’s really important. So, one topic I’m really interested in is how legal teams are being built, almost like product organizations these days. So I’m very interested to learn from you as to how you approached building Nextdoor’s legal tech stack.
Sophia Contreras: That’s been fun. I mean, when I first joined the company, we had obviously nothing. We were just starting the organization. Uh, I think like most legal groups, the first thing you wanna bring in is contract management system. Um, I, I like to joke that, you know, when I joined the, the company in 2018, I’m pretty sure interns were signing contracts and, you know, we had no idea where anything was and.
You know, what was active or not. So, um, that was the first thing we brought in was ACL M. Um,
Um, the other really important thing we did at the beginning of building the team was we hired a legal operations manager. Um, I think it’s really hard to practice law and build.
The tech stack at the same time. And so, you know, people, I talk to a lot of people about what tech we’re using and you know, there’s peer networks and people wanna know, what do you think the best CLM is?
Or what about this? And what about that? What’s been your experience? I, I always say that our legal, our CLM is only as good as our legal operations manager. And if we did not have one, it would essentially be a repository and would not, would not be the, you know, the tech that it is today. Um, so that was, you know, the first key thing that we did.
But then. Over the years, you know, we, we brought in other standard systems like a, a billing management and that sort of thing, but the, but the most exciting stuff is really happening now, um, with AI and, you know, it’s been a big push at the company in general and nextdoor to really be working in AI as much as we can and finding opportunities for, um, you know, AI use cases that will help us work smarter and more efficiently.
But also we’ve been doing. You know, ai, I think AI has been around for a long time. Obviously generative AI is, you know, the, the new exciting thing. Um, we’ve been using AI within the product for many years and ML models and that sort of thing. But, um, now there’s, you know, lots of opportunities to experiment with generative ai both in the platform, but then also in how we operate.
Um, so from a legal perspective, I. I think it was, we, we, we all mostly started with the chat based, um, ai, which I think, you know, I think most people can relate to. Um, and I really saw that grow a lot last year. And then as we push towards the end of last year and into this beginning of this year, it’s been really cool to see more use cases outside of.
Chat and research. Um, we have enterprise tools accessible to employees at next door from, you know, Gemini, glean, Claude, that sort of thing. And then we have more bespoke legal tools that we’ve been working with, uh, for legal specific use cases. And I think my mindset at first was, oh, everyone should have the same legal tool and we should pick one and we should go with that.
But as I’ve seen more products come onto the market and seen how we’re really working with AI and what the different use cases are across the legal org, you know, a commercial attorney has a very different use case from a product lawyer. Um, my mind is more open now to, you know, maybe it’s, it’s just that we have to pick the right tool for each group or each person and not, you know, put all our eggs into one basket.
So it’s been a lot of experimentation and. It’s been really fun to see, you know, what people have figured out. And to see that switch from like, oh, I don’t know about ai, to, oh my gosh, I can’t put it down. And now I am, you know, on Claude until two in the morning trying to build an agent. That’s me by the way.
Bim Dave: by the way. Yep. Um, I, I’ve, I’ve been there and done it, so I, I can, I can see why you would get excited about that. Um, what, so. So with, with that in mind, like there’s a, there’s a plethora of different solutions out there in the market. As, as we and as we speak, there’s probably another five that are being launched.
What pr, what are the principles that guide your decisions when selecting and investing in illegal technology, whether it be AI or not?
Sophia Contreras: Well, a, I mean, it really has to work for us. I, it drives me crazy when, when teams spend money on technology that never gets. Appropriately implemented. And, and that’s always been a challenge. I mean, I think for g and a organizations, foundational teams like legal, you know, we have made that mistake in the past where we’ve bought a piece of technology really thinking that, you know, this would be amazing for us.
And then been unable to find engineering resources within the company to help us actually implement it in, in the way that worked. Um, so, you know, kind of first principle is.
Like, do we have, do we have the, you know, the resources in place to actually build this thing and to make it into something that will work for the team?
And so, of course we love technology that doesn’t require any implementation. Uh, that’s kind of the sweet spot. Um, but I think the, the, the tooling’s all getting better, you know, with CPS and, and that sort of thing where there’s a lot more connections are becoming a lot easier across different systems.
Um. And, you know, that’s something I’ve really noticed, for example, in Claude, is just that I can connect to various, uh, other tools that I use in my day-to-day that make the use of that AI more efficient and more helpful. Um, because it’s not just, you know, within its own little box of something that doesn’t integrate into other things.
Um, you know, pricing is a big deal for us too. We, uh, we have limited budget and so we wanna make sure that we’re, um. Spending it in the smartest way possible. Um, when I go out as a, the legal leader and, and make a pitch for a piece of technology, uh, it has to be because it’s the best technology for us and that we’re really gonna get value from it.
Um, and I think, you know, some of the stuff we’ve implemented in the past six plus months have really.
Met that promise. They have decreased outside counsel cost on, you know, those little things that you would’ve had to call someone to get some very specific information about a tiny, uh, or, or, uh, you know, leave ordinance in the city of Philadelphia or something like that.
Um, but now you can find it using specific legal AI tools and so, uh, it, it’s definitely made it worth it to spend the money there. Um, go ahead.
Bim Dave: oh, oh, oh, sorry. Um, I was just say, where, where have you seen the biggest return on investment from, from those, uh, solutions that you’ve implemented in the last six to 12 months?
Sophia Contreras: I think on, uh, employment, uh, advice and counseling really, you know, we don’t have an in-house employment lawyer. We, uh, cover that, you know, across corporate and. That’s the type of thing where we’d have to call out to either a local council in California or council in New York, or council somewhere to get specific information, which would require them to do research on LexiNexis or call, you know, a local firm in, in the location that we’re looking at.
Um. You know, with the pandemic, the company really spread out. So in the past we had, you know, employees in very specific places. The majority of our employees were in the Bay Area in California. Um, the next largest was New York, and then we had a hub in Chicago. Um, but with 2020 happening, you know, now we have employees all over the place and it’s not really efficient for me to.
Have local council in every single state across the us, um, or, or, you know, spend money getting them spun up on, on what our models all are and all of that. So that has definitely been a, a place where we’ve seen return on investment.
I wouldn’t say, you know, commercial is more return on our time. So doing, uh, commercial work in-house, we have an advertising business.
We have, um, high volume of advertising contracts that come in every single day. And, you know, that takes a lot of our time, but that’s not something that we would’ve outsourced. But it is something that, that really, uh, re you know, returns. Our investment on just the time that people are spending on those sorts of things, which is also very important when you are a small team.
Um, we wanna limit the spend outside and we wanna make sure that people inside are working very efficiently.
Bim Dave: Hmm. Excellent. So when you think about, um, how Nextdoor grows and how you scale the team that you run, um, it’s probably very different to the traditional method of, you know, throwing more people at the problem, right? So what, what does that look like for you as you kind of look forward, what the things that are kind of pertinent in your head as to how you scale your, your ability to be able to serve a grow, like a high growth technology company?
Sophia Contreras: Well, I mean, we do have to keep up with, uh, the, the tech, uh, pods at the company. I, I tell my team a lot that, you know, if we’re not using these AI tools. The product team is gonna do it on their own and they’re gonna come to some because they want a decision very quickly, right? So if we’re saying, oh, we need time to do that, or we have to call outside counsel to check so and so.
At some point, these, these teams inside the company are just gonna start bypassing legal and going out on their own, which is obviously not what we want. We want them to hire us for our, the job that we do, which is providing legal advice and counsel. Um, there’s also, you know, interesting questions around, uh, privilege and, and, and all of that.
There was a case that came down recently about how.
You know, if you put, if you, if a non-lawyer put information into an AI tool, um, you destroy privilege because there’s no lawyer on the other side. So I, I do, that’s a nuance that I haven’t really, you know, gone out and, and spoken at broadly to the company.
But it’s something that I’m thinking about, which is, you know, we have to be on top of it and integrating these tools so that our business clients internally are not doing it themselves. Um. It’s just, it’s a, it’s like a race to keep up with people. And I have more and more recently I’ve been getting these, um, you know, briefs or write-ups or, or term sheets or that sort of thing from non-lawyers at the company who are like, okay, here’s, here’s what, uh, I think we should do.
And I’m going, wait.
Where did you get this? Like, like this is a new question. I’ve been, I’ve been now telling the team that we need to ask, uh, when we get some kind of written body of work from an internal business client, like, who actually drafted this? Was it you or was it Gemini? Or was it Claude? You know?
And usually it’s like, well, I did, but with help from this AI tool. I’m like, okay, all right. We’ve level set now.
Bim Dave: yes. Yeah, exactly. So it’s, it’s an interesting point though, right? So how, how do you balance the governance, the risk and compliance, uh, with that, um, kind of need for speed, right? As in, you want to innovate, you wanna be able to use the, the latest and greatest solutions to help you accelerate. But then there’s, there’s that, those balancing factors, right?
Sophia Contreras: I, it’s, it’s, it’s so tough. Um, but, you know, I really pride our legal organization on not being the org of No. Uh, we, we really wanna be the org of. You know that the business partner org, so how can we help the business achieve its objectives? And you know, typically that means we’re, uh, I wouldn’t say, you know, very risk, uh, tolerant or, you know, overly permissive, but we’re, we’re very open to all options and we wanna be alongside the business in the journey and not, you know, standing in the way.
Um, so.
I think we’re also modeling as lawyers, we can use AI too, and we’re in this with you. Um, and that, you know, helps the business feel like we’re, we’re, we’re with them and we’re being innovative. Um, I’m, I’m open to trying, you know, most things and I, I, we talk a lot about not being the, you know, the boy who cried wolf, the story that we all know from, from being kids.
So, um.
When we do say no to something, we really want it to mean something and to have, you know, there be substance behind that. So general rule is we’re really permissive and open and, and helpful and, um, we’ll save our, you know, absolutely not for the times that it really, really matters.
Bim Dave: Yeah. I think that’s wise, wise advice.
So where, where you, um, I, I guess what, in some of the conversations that I have with. Uh, both law firms and legal departments. One of the big things that I hear a common theme about the struggle is that kind of, that rate of change, um, not just in terms of selection of a solution that solves a problem, but then how you roll it out internally, how you make an impact, um, because.
Traditionally, like rolling out any kind of solution has been challenging for, um, law firms, legal departments. Um, just from the, just from a change management perspective, right? Teaching somebody a new way of doing something. I’d be really keen to get your, um, your thoughts on that in terms of how would you advise, um, other leaders in, in the kind of legal field who are looking at their kind of tech stack and they’re thinking, okay, I can see all these great solutions.
Where do I start? Like where do I start to be able to make some of this change and be successful the way that you guys have?
Sophia Contreras: That’s also a really.
Good question because I, you know, I go to a lot of panels and conferences and that sort of thing, and I always go to those, you know, AI tools, discussions. And what I really long for is for someone to get up on stage and give me a step-by-step playbook on how do I implement this in this specific, you know, work stream and measure the success and all of that.
And that.
I haven’t been satisfied yet. I haven’t really heard people, you know, giving that, that play by play of here’s how you do. This specific thing, um.
Um,
I’ll, I’ll talk about it from, from a standpoint of the legal org itself to begin with.
So, I very much believe that in order to make change happen, you have to model the behavior.
And so I, as the chief legal officer, really started working in tools and, and sharing with the legal org, oh, I tried this, it was really cool. Or, you know, I did it this way, but it didn’t quite work. So maybe try it that way and like, Hey, let me. Let me show you what works if you build this template and plug this thing in and look what it spits out.
And isn’t that so great? And so kind of started doing that, just hands on the keyboard myself and then sharing with the team. And then you start to get,
You know, one or two people, oh yeah, that’s cool, and they start doing it. And then if they do the same thing where they model, suddenly, you know, more people downstream are doing it.
It’s been really fun. Actually, this is not legal, but, um, we’ve been working on, you know, various building, various agents and that sort of thing. And, uh, I recently built a little ai, um, assistant in using Claude, you know, to help with calendaring and, and that sort of thing. And I, I. I built it. It’s not perfect.
Uh, it’s still, you know, it’s not quite where I want it to be, but it’s, it’s pretty cool. And I showed it to one person who then showed it to more people on her team, and then I showed it to someone else, and then that person made it, uh, an offsite. Um, exercise was for everyone on the leadership team of that organization built their own AI agents to do this sort of thing.
So it’s, it becomes viral. Um, and I think that, that, that’s really the best way with stuff like this, like this kind of tech is to just do it and share it and then, and try to, you know, try to get it to catch fire and spread.
Bim Dave: Yeah. I love that. It’s, it’s like you, you are, you are championing it, right? As in you, you are the champion in this case. So that’s, that’s, that’s an amazing way to think about it.
And I think, I think that’s probably one of the best ways to do it, right? Because if you can prove a use case, even if it’s like you said. And partially working one or not quite there, it shows the capability. Right. And I think people can relate to that in your setting better than, um, like an off the shelf demo of, of a solution.
Right. It’s actually solving a real problem, which I love.
Sophia Contreras: Yeah. And you, you know, I think it’s important as a leader of an organization to really get down, you know, in the weeds and, and, and understand how the technology works. I mean, recently we un onboarded a new program called Sandstone, which is a legal, um, AI task management system. But it has, you know.
Intake and it can do redlining and all of that. And so one of my big things that I keep pushing in in the org is I really want us to find ways. I want every department within legal to find something that they can automate. Like what? What is the one thing? It doesn’t have to be 10 things. That has to be one thing, right?
And some of the lowest hanging fruit is those high volume contracts that you get. All the time that are easy to go through and you’re just kind of annoying ’cause you’re like, Ugh, I have to deal with this thing and I have all these, these other things to do that are more, you know, important or of higher business value.
And so I, I, you know, take the NDA workflow, for example, to me, this is something that, that really should be easy to automate where you’re kind of, you know. Maybe being able to get to a place of signing with, with a, with a back and forth where there isn’t much of a human in the loop. It’s more, you know, red lines being checked against our playbooks and drafts being sent back and forth where the, the business can really self-serve in a lot of ways.
Um, and I’ve been, I’ve been up here, you know, at the top of the org going, yeah, we must automate, we have to do this.
Well, then I went in. Worked through an NDA redline with our legal operations manager to really understand like, okay, how does the technology work and, and what are opportunities for automation and what is the best way to do that?
And in that way, I’m able to have a real, like a realistic view of, of the possibilities. And I’m not just, you know.
Demanding that a team do something in a specific way without really understanding how it could work or what the limitations are.
Bim Dave: Yeah. No. Understood. So, so let’s, um, let’s take a step forward into the future and tell me your view in terms of how you see the role of in-house legal teams evolving over the next five to 10 years.
Sophia Contreras: Gosh, I wish I had a crystal ball. Um, I. I do think that, I do think we need people. Um, I don’t think, you know, I think, I think, I think jobs will be affected by ai. Um, in particular, I think, you know, those kind of the early to the career, you know, lower level jobs, that sort of thing. Um, I think we’re gonna have to figure out, okay, what do, what do new grads do?
You know, in the, in the age of ai, it’s gonna be. An adjustment that we have to make. Um, because the way I see a team, an in-house legal team working in, in the future is, you know, pretty small, very tech enabled. Um, hopefully working very quickly on repeatable tasks and, you know, high volume things, stuff that we can automate, um, and being more savvy with the technology and.
And you know how to use it. Um, versus just working in Microsoft office and kind of the, the old school way that we used to work, I think that there’s gonna be a, a lot less blank paging, you know, where you kind of start with something and you’re like, I gotta draft this thing. What am I gonna say? Um, we’re gonna be able to get further along in a project a lot earlier than we could before.
Um, I think that more roles like legal ops or kind of. Uh, contract admins, that sort of thing will probably play a bigger role in the legal team of the future because those are the roles that can really work with the AI workflows and, um, kind of be that, that front door and then escalate up into legal or, you know, to a lawyer, um, where, where legal work is needed and.
I, I mean, it’s, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be interesting. I’m, I’ve been thinking a lot about just, you know, I have kids, like I said earlier in the conversation and what is college gonna be when, when they’re there, and what, what, I think college is important, not just for, you know, your future job, but obviously for just growth and development and all of that.
But I, I think that,
I think there’s gonna be a recalibration of the things that we’re focused on and. People are gonna learn to work in different ways. It’s gonna be harder for people that are already well into their career and have worked a certain way for a long period of time. And then the younger generations coming up, you know, hopefully, you know, when I think about my kids, they’re gonna be trained into that new way from the beginning and, and it probably won’t even be a thing for them because it’s just been part of, you know, how they’ve done stuff.
Bim Dave: Yeah. No, I, I agree. I think, um, so I, I also have a, a young one who’s nine, nine, my 9-year-old, um, girl who’s going on 19 at the moment,
Sophia Contreras: I got a 10-year-old, one of those.
Bim Dave: Okay. Yes, yes. You know, um, so I was, I was thinking about her the other day and I was thinking that actually, like there’s no, when she comes to me and says, which degree do I wanna do in future?
I don’t think I’m gonna have an answer for, apart from like do what you think is gonna get you most excited and what you’re gonna be passionate about. But the one skill that I do want her to learn is just to be adaptable, right? Because I think if we go into this knowing that things will change and we can kind of train our kids to be that way, then I think they’ll have a much higher success rate because it may change, right?
Things are gonna change. Things are changing daily, right? So, um, we can imagine something. Big’s gonna happen in the future, that’s gonna change things again. So don’t get hung up on like what you’re doing in terms of degree, but be ready to change and, and learn the skill of, of being able to adapt and be nimble.
And maybe that’s, that’s, that’s how you kind of protect your future.
Sophia Contreras: Yeah. And I think that’s gonna be really difficult for people just now who don’t have that, you know, flexibility. And one thing I, I was actually really excited, I think it was last week, I had a conversation with an outside council. And for the first time I heard that excitement about AI tools in a law firm.
And, you know, I’ve been working with the council for a long time on, on lots of different things and I’ve been trying, you know, various AI
Things out on them. And I get the, oh, did you, where’d you get that? Did, did you write it? You know, did GCAI help you and blah, blah, blah. And like, of course, you know, I’m trying to educate myself and be smarter when I come to you with questions because then I pay less, you know, when I get my bill.
Um. But I heard that kind of skepticism for a long time, and then last week I just saw the switch flip and started to hear more from, from that, you know, part of the legal industry about Oh yeah, like there’s a lot of opportunity here and how can we.
You know, grasp that opportunity while still being good lawyers and following our ethical rules and keeping client confidentiality and, and all of that.
I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of open questions and stuff to figure out, but like, you have to be curious about what things could look like, and you have to be flexible and nimble. And the people that are not right now in this moment are def I, I think, are gonna fall behind. Uh. It’s just the reality of where we are.
Bim Dave: Yeah, no, totally agree. Totally agree. Thank you so much, uh, for that Sophia. So, so I just wanna wrap up with a few, um, wrap up questions if I may.
The first of which is, if you could go back to yourself in a time machine and, and visit yourself at aged 18, what advice would you give yourself?
Sophia Contreras: Slow down.
You know, I’m someone who has just checked off everything on the list very quickly. Um, I, I, I regret, you know, not taking some time after college or, you know, take, I’ve had no breaks there. I mean, yes, I’ve had a couple of children, I’ve had a little bit of maternity leave and all of that, but just, you don’t have to start your life.
That early you can, you can explore and, and do different things and be more relaxed and free.
Bim Dave: I like that. That’s good. Good advice. Good advice. Um, and if you could, um, pick a, well, actually, let me, let me ask you this. What, what’s on your bucket list of places that you would like to go to, that you’ve not been to in the world so far?
Sophia Contreras: Well, I am going to Japan in 10 days. I’ve been there, but I’m bringing my kids this time. Very excited about that. Um, where have I not been? I, I wanna go, this is hard because I’ve, I’ve been a lot of places. I have not been to South America. I would like to go to South America. I would like to go to Patagonia.
Uh.
Visit, you know, Argentina and Chile and, and various places there. Um, but I also would really like to go back to Africa, uh, where I lived as a kid. I’d like to bring my children and I’d like for them to experience that, which is not a new place for me. But it’s always new when, when you’re seeing it through, you know, your kids’ eyes who haven’t done that sort of thing before.
Bim Dave: Absolutely. Yeah. And I’m sure it’s very different, uh, to what, what we both remember, um, compared to what it was back then.
Sophia Contreras: to be.
Bim Dave: Yes, yes, indeed. Excellent. Um, well, Sophia, it’s been amazing. I I could, I feel like I could carry on talking to you, but we, we we’re, we’re running out of time, so we’ll have to do a second session at some point.
But I really appreciate you joining us today.
Sophia Contreras: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been great to chat.